General - Thoughts of the QRS

Clutches - TRA/TRAII component swaps

Calibration - Primary setup for 07 440/800

Clutches - What secondary do I have, Roller or Button?

Question] Hello. I have been searching but can't find out how to tell if I have a button or roller secondary clutch. I have an 06 800 MXZ Adrenaline. Is there a way to tell if its a roller or button by looking at it without taking anything apart?

Answer] Normal in 2006 and 2007 for only “X” models to have roller secondary. An “Adrenaline” model usually have the button secondary.
To see for yourself, remove the secondary off of the sled and observe the helix. The button helix has a "spacer" that is not included in the helix.
the roller helix has the spacer built/pushed right into the helix itself.
Click here for picture illustration.
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Gearing - Change from 21 to 20 or 19
Question) Joe, I have an 07R summit 159 at 5000 to 8000 feet. What do you think about going from a 21 to a 20 or 19?

Answer) A gearing decision is influenced by “elevation and snow type” so then what elevation do you run at and what kind of snow types do you normally see?

Facts; Any lower gear will help enhance acceleration.
Observation - You can hit the bottom of a hill with a few more speed units and help maintain that holding power needed without track speed diminishing too quickly.

Facts; Track speed will diminish at a slower rate with any lower gear.
Observation - "Elevation" Feedback I get from tuners is many who run higher than 7500’, they seem to like the lower gearing as they see power loss as elevation increases. The engine power decreases however the driver can still maintain a good track speed.
Observation - "Snow load" Where tuners get into deeper snow, or wet/heavy snow and observe an example of 29mph~35mph track speeds, then the lower gearing will be beneficial to hold track speed for a longer time especially when it’s hard running. Improves "holding power" regarding track speed.

There are guys I talk to who run from 3500 to 7500 feet that particularly boondock, not running on big climbs at all. Guys report back to me they like the lower 20 and 19 gears for technical riding in the trees when they need that extra quick burst of acceleration to climb little hills and get into side hilling, winding up through the salad.
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Clutches - Mix match clutches, 03 primary with 06 secondary
Question) Joe, my machine is 03 440x with a 06 800 H.O. power tech. What I have for clutches is the 03 440 primary and 06 800 adrenaline secondary. What can I do for gearing, right now it has the 21:43 How can I make this mismatch work?

Answer) Great that you have an 06 secondary. The first thing to know is that in 2006 and 2007, the X-model=roller and adrenaline model=button so now you would be able to get the correct helix off of me.
The 03 440 is TRA-2 primary clutch (12 degree sheave angle) and uses a 1-3/8” belt width. The 06 800 HPV-27 secondary is VSA (Variable sheave angle, 12~14 degrees) TRA-3 and 1.5” wide belt.
You would be able to use the mixed match of the clutches by taking the HPV secondary apart and inside you’ll find 2 shims. Remove one shim and re-assemble with the clutch parts and continue to use the stock 440 BRP belt #414860700 (affectionately known by 440 guys as the 8607 belt) It is one tough belt for a little belt, this was used stock on 800 open mod sno-x chassis and worked quite well, lasted a long life and they are still economical to buy.
As far as the primary ramps, the 440 ramp is the 296 and the 800 open mod’s used the 293x’s, to which the 440 ramp is a bit thicker and will produce quicker rpms than the 293x however not to worry, I apply a primary spring with a lower final force than what normally used in the regular trail kit. That primary spring would be a grey dalton 200/330 and apply the 23g in clicker 3, hammer down!
Regarding gearing, the 21:43 uses a 74P chain. You could gear up to 23 or 24 top gear with the same 74P chain and be geared close to a stock renegade model of that 2003 year. Each 1 tooth taller gear will give you an approximate 4mph more top end, really you could count on 6mph increase with 2 top teeth and the midrange acceleration would be strong and excellent.
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Clutches - Galling in primary clutch
Question)...Tonight, I noticed that the clutch at the very inside of the face of it down at the bottom of the sheave has some pitting. It seems to be in an area that is not a big problem but I wanted to get your opinion. Is this normal. Is it going to cause a future problem?

Answer) Short version...
That pitting is called Galling and right at the stub is partly from the bushing and button clearance inherent in the primary clutch. Under load there is a major clearance and a minor clearance side. The major side is front of engine; the minor is towards the clutch. The distance across the o.d. of the sheaves is farther away on the major side than the minor side.
For galling to happen at that area on the stub;
i] the clutches" have reached full shift, however...
ii] The sled itself has not necessarily achieved speeds reaching theoretical o.d. or even 1:1.
The reason for the primary galling like that is because the clutches achieved full open for a moment in time.

Answer) Long version...
There is a point where the clutches are up shifting, the speed is increasing and the sled reaches a speed where it’s at a "governor point". You top out in mph and I can safely bet at least 10 mph below the rated 1:1 ratio in stock clutched Doo sleds as of lately. You stay on the throttle and the sled basically does not gain anymore speed however the secondary is still opening. The sled maintains the same speed, however the secondary still opens, and you maintain peak mph by virtue of belt slip.

At that "governor point" the combination of final helix angle and the secondary spring final force cannot overcome the push from the primary. The primary pushes the secondary open but the power is not going to ground, rather creating heat. Keep this up for more than 10 seconds....BOOM! The belt shreds.

How to prove; With the secondary removed, you can either take a thick square elastic band or a couple of small plastic tyraps and put it on the helix tightly shoved against the secondary sheave. As the shift increases the sheave opens and pushes the elastic or tyrap towards the chassis trying to shove either of them off.

You take a test run and start to notice the sled peaks out, mph does not increase, brake, stop sled, measure temperatures on sheaves and look on helix/backside of secondary to see how much farther the band/tyrap is pushed back. Ideally it should be knocked off.

On the primary you can blue dye or felt marker where the present galling is located. Mark the galling up. Now with engine off, slip the belt down in the secondary a little. You start up and go for a run; the bogging evident is from the clutches starting in a slight higher ratio.

[You don't want the marker getting wiped off] Now go for your run to top end mph. When you slow down to stop grab the brake and lock it solid at about 30 mph on coast down so the belt will not go to the bottom of the primary at the stub.

Results you'll see - But wait a minute, you only achieved 100 mph when your theoretical 1:1 ratio is 106 mph. How did the elastic band get knocked off but I came up short by around 6 mph. The elastic band should only be pushed off at 1:1 or greater, like overdrive. Did I reach that?...No.

What happened in the secondary? The secondary resisted slippage, clamping the belt up to around 99 mph and now at around 100 mph the secondary components (helix angle/secondary spring selection) could not resist the push from the primary and voila, pops open to full shift . What is revealed in the primary? Answer = Galling.
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Clutches - TRA vs. TRA-2 vs. TRA-3/5/7
There are mechanical/physical features that brp says TRA-3/5/7 clutches are an improvement over theTRA-2. TRA-5 is improvement over TRA-3. TRA-7 is improvement over TRA-5

TRA-2 & 1-3/8 belt. 12 degree straight angle, years 1998~2002
TRA-3 & 1.5" belt 12~14 degree sheave angle, years 2003~present day.
TRA-5 & 1.5" belt 12~14 degree sheave angle, years 2005~present day
TRA-7 & 1.5" belt 12~14 degree sheave angle, years 2007~present day
With previous TRA-2 primary the TRA lever was held in by one fastener which needed a long allen wrench to remove the fastener, taking the TRA lever out.
The new TRA clutch, the levers are mounted in the sliding sheave with 2 fasteners and there is no need to machine the bell for slots to run an Allen wrench. With no slots, you need an improved tool for holding the TRA primary - aka the 4-fingered grunt tool .
TRA, TRA-2, TRA-3 have splined governor cup assembly.
TRA-5/7 have taper governor cup assembly.
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The TRA-3 platform contributes to achieving 12% lower moment of inertia. This means snappier throttle response and quicker acceleration due to the property of its new smaller size. The Variable Sheave Angle [VSA] helps match the angle of the belt better as the belt travels up the shift ratios and is less stressed.
Allows for a wider belt that carries more chords and increased tensile strength imposed by higher hp engines. In 2003 the angle varies from top 14 degrees to bottom 12 degrees.

TRA-3
Larger roll pin design
2 tra lever hold down bolts
Larger 8mm fastners for spring cup cover
30mm diameter shaft for 70% more rigidity
Spline governor cup assembly.
Thinner outer rim material where starter ring gear is mounted.
Ring gear mounts farther radius from crankshaft.
Ring gear cannot be interchanged from TRA-3 to TRA-2

TRA-5 platform is designed to run cooler and HAS less overall weight then the STD TRA-3 primary.
Uses curved steel arms in flatland calibration.
Uses TRA III curved aluminum arms for high elevation.
Holes in siding sheave used to balance clutch - balance weights no longer used.
***Removal of splines, replace with taper to increase rigidity by another 30% so now instead of spline governor cup withstand 250hp now the taper tra primary can handle 300hp. The taper has contributed to the governor cup flexing less.

TRA-7
Cross between TRA-3 and TRA-5
Uses TRA-3 curved aluminum arms
Forged sliding sheave.
Spring cup bolt holes are deeper and have longer 8mm screws
Fixed half taper/governor cup fit.
Cushion drive
Most parts are not interchangeable with older TRA versions.
Taper governor cup assembly.

2003~newer consumer
600 TRA - Cast primary - Designed for 600, use soft compound belt.
800 TRA - Forged sliding sheave - Designed for 800, use harder compound belt

2003~newer race
440 TRA - Forged sliding sheave
440/600/800 race chassis - Forged Clutch
600/800 race chassis - special order Magnesium [limited quantity] - you have to be really special to get one of these - I'm lucky I even know about them.
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Clutches - Mix match clutches, TRA-2, TRA-3
Question) Hi Joey, Looking to replace my primary clutch on an 01mxz800. Do you know if I can put a TRA-3 on, taking off the TRA-2 that came with the sled?

Answer) The TRA-2 is 1-3/8 belt width. The TRA-3 is 1.5 belt width. To get the TRA-3 primary to work with a TRA-2 secondary clutch, upon disassembly, observe there is one shim down in between the sheaves. To get 1.5 inches width, install a 2nd shim on top of the present shim, then re-assemble. With that 2 ^nd shim installed the clutch will now be 1.5" belt width. You'll have to re-adjust the belt deflection when everything is back on the sled and calibrate the clutch to the new personality of the sled.

Question) Hey, I just discovered that I have mix matched clutches on my sled.
I bought an 02 engine with the primary clutch on it.
I bought an 04 chassis with the secondary clutch on it.
What should I do about the mix-match? The 02 primary is 1-3/8 belt width and the secondary is 1.5" Quite frankly I can't afford a new secondary at this point.

Answer) To get the TRA-3 secondary to work with your TRA-2 primary clutch, all you have to do is when the secondary is apart, remove one shim from inside and then re-assemble. With that shim removed the clutch will now be 1-3/8 belt width. You'll have to re-adjust the belt deflection when everything is back on the sled and calibrate the clutch to the new personality of the sled.

Note:
There are 2004 lynx models that have TRA-3 VSA primary clutch with old style 2003 TRA-2 formula roller secondary. Example 2004 LYNX RAVE 440 uses TRA-3 primary and formula TRA-2 roller secondary.
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Belt - 800 belt on a 600/500SS - Don't do it.
Question) I hear about putting a 166 (800 belt) on my 500SS, will it last longer?

Answer) Don't put an 800 belt on a 600 clutch. An 800 primary has a forged sheave. The 600/500SS is a cast sheave. The 800 belt is a harder compound belt and is designed to run on a forged sheave. The non-800 belt is softer compound and designed for cast sheaves. What happens is the 800 belt will eventually wear a groove into the sheave at the "shift range" that you normally drive at, literally putting a dished groove on the cast sheaves. Some racers use an 800 belt on a cast sheave because it allows the engine to accelerate quicker from engagement rpms to peak rpm. I would not advise that kind of blend on a consumer sled.
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General - How does the XP trail kit feel for normal riding?
Question) After installing your 800XP clutch kit how will "normal" trail riding be? Trust your set up, just let me know how the sled will react.

Answer) For normal riding you’ll find a tighter connection between your throttle thumb tip and the track. The rpms at 65mph will be down around 6200 or about 3~400 less than stock, however flick the throttle and the engine quickly whacks 8150. Mileage is up on sustained throttle positions because of lower rpms and the feel is not squishy.
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Calibration - Squawking and Rattling under the hood
Question) I don’t know if this is an issue but I am getting a lot of squawking and rattling from the primary. I have pulled it apart and everything looks good.

Answer) Squawking from under the hood is usually from over tight belt deflection which will cause high heat on the primary shaft when the engine idles for a long time. OR, can be caused from drastic misalignment to which you’ll observe black ring colors down at the bottom of the primary on one sheave or another or both sheaves.

Rattling under the hood can be caused from the engine being at too low of idle rpms, thus causing vibration forcing the tra levers to displace back and forth at the same frequency of engine power pulses, prematurely wearing the tra lever arm bushings. OR, can be caused from the roller washer thickness is too thin or the washer's are worn thin and allow the roller to vibrate back and forth with a displacement causing the rattling noise. I would check roller clearance between the washers and lever forks. OR, can be caused from excessive piston to cylinder wall clearance. The piston rings slap the bottom of the cylinder every engine down stroke = Remove primary clutch and start engine up and let idle. If you hear the same rattling, shut engine off, take to an engine technician and perform a leak down test.
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Flyweight - XP summit flyweight question for 6'K to 9k' elevation
Question) Ive heard that a good setup for a 163 in the Revelstoke, Golden area is 16g pin weight, 160/350 primary spring, stock violet secondary spring, and your QR11 helix. Would this work well in a 154? I ride in very similar elevations as the above setup(6 to 9000').

Answer)Regarding track length say from the 140ish to the 160ish, naw does not matter the track length itself too much. What does matter is driver weight so say a guy who weighs 135 lbs can use more flyweight than a guy who weighs 320 lbs and do have guys running that are heavier.
The body weight is what matters “more influence” for the sled to pull off whatever flyweight it can handle. I am 252 lbs and run 15.5g in Revelstoke, my pal who is 140 lbs he runs 16.6g. In the end just run the sled first and observe your rpms. Flyweight determines rpms - IF rpms are low, THEN reduce flyweight. IF rpms are high, THEN increase flyweight. Tailor to your own application.
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General - Have a kit for the 2009 800 summit yet?
Question) Joe, I will be getting a 09 154. Stock gears (21/49) i think. I heard that it has a new helix and a new deflection adjustment. is the kit availible?

Answer) The 09 model is coming with a different primary ramp to which I have to test out. I have a set of ramps here and I may be able to get this kit to run with the stock 09 ramp, just going to have to do a little tinkering with it and see what I can pull off. Will be getting out right away to Revelstoke in Nov/early Dec as soon as there is enough snow that won’t wreck sleds. I have a little team of guys who can’t wait to go out testing. So keep an eye on the website in the “high elevation” kit section for a release.
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General - 2002~older 600/700 summit
Question)Hi Joe, Im looking for 2 clutch kits for a few older summits. My daughter is riding a 2002 Summit 700 Sport (144 x 2 track). My bro in law has a 2002 Summit 600 Sport. I was wondering if you have any kind of clutch kit for these models (both non RER)? We do most of our riding in the 3000-6000 elevation. Please let me know if kit is available Thanks, MK.

Answer)In 2002 there were 2 sport models. 1]Summit 700 Sport. This model has the formula style secondary with the pretension spring and 3.75 diameter helix. The 2] Summit 700 Sport-R. The “R” model had “RER”. This is the HPV-27 secondary to which has a compression spring like all the newer models to today. This helix is 4.25 inches diameter. I only make kits for the HPV-27.

I did at one time make a kit for the formula secondary however the helix angles/pretensions I used quickly wore out buttons, even the hard racing buttons would wear quickly, so I dropped that kit. The RER secondary works excellent and this kit in a 700 will give grief to a stock clutch, stock engine MXZ or REV 800.

If you are really interested then have a look around the internet for a used RER (HPV-27) secondary and I can build you a kit. These secondaries can be found for anywhere from $40 to $125 dollars and in decent shape, usually only have to replace the forward black wear buttons prior to kit installation. Then the kit would come with primary spring, 3800 engagement, secondary spring and SMT helix.
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Engine Fitness - Engine has high miles. Compression check?
Question) Joe, my sled has about 6000 miles on it. What can wear, what can I look for?

Answer) With 6000 miles on your sled, how many miles does engine have? I want to know what kind of shape your piston rings are in. If your rings and pistons are worn out then it will be difficult to calibrate the clutch kit, it will run good when the engine is cold but when engine hot then will not run good and that is usually an indication of the piston rings or complete piston needs to be changed.

Take a Cold vs. Hot compression test.
1] Start the sled and let it run for about 30 seconds and kill engine.
Take compression with 6 pulls at wide open throttle.
What are the values?

2] Start the sled and let it run until the coolant is at operating temperature and flowing. Go take it for a run if you can and out there when engine operating temperature, shut it off and check the compression with 6 pulls at wide open throttle.
What are the values?

It does not matter if your gage is accurate or not as long as you use the same gauge when cold vs. hot temps.
Indications of rings going bad:
cold compression - 5lb(35kpa) or greater difference from mag to pto.
Hot compression - 7lbs (48kpa)(or more less than when it was cold then you need rings.
Hot compression - 10lbs(68kpa) or more less than when it was cold then you need pistons.
Example:
Cold @ 145lbs (999kpa)
Hot @ 138 lbs (951kpa) or less than...
Value difference more than 10lbs (68kpa)
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Engine Fitness - Leakdown test "engine compression" what does it do?
Cylinders never wear even as you know. Therefore, you will have minor deviations in the walls of the cylinders and as a result less ring seating occurs. The piston speed makes up for this deficiency as it passes the offending area quickly. Even with plated and SCEM (Boron Composite) cylinder walls that literally as hard as diamonds, you have these offending areas.
The leakdown test finds offending areas on the cylinder walls and can show the truest measurement of ring fitness.
It shows if pistons need to be replaced?...could be skirt collapsing?

Yes, of course...look in the corners where the skirts start and see if you witness and microscopic cracks. A magnifying glass helps as these a very tiny and often not able to be seen with the naked eye.
Your Big Bro, Freddie Klies
www.easterncycleperf.com
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Gearing - Summit gearing from 10th 2.52 to 8th 2.86
Question)Hey Joe, I have an 05 summit X 800. I'm going to run the 06 440 Racer 2.86 8 tooth drivers with the new 155 camo extreme. I ride at 5-8,000' and weight about 230lbs w/o gear. I was running 19/46 with the stock 10 tooth & have your SX8 clutch kit, I was wondering what you'd recommend for gearing.
Stock gearing is 19/45. Thanks Brent

Answer)That 440 2.86 driver set is nearly the same diameter as a 9th 2.52 driver, however the 2.86 is slight more efficient. So then you can think of the 8th is like a 9th then can calculate the ratio difference. 10th / 9th = 1.11 or 11%

19:46 is 2.42:1 ratio. You changing nothing in the system except the drive sprocket, you are lowering your gearing by another 11% which would be (2.42 x 11%) = 2.69
To find out the new "overall gear ratio" you take 46gear and divide by 2.69ratio = 17gear.
Going from a 19:46-10th{2.52} driver to a 8th-{2.86} driver would be the equivalent of gearing to a 17:46

You did not mention the reason why you wanted lower gearing so I cannot recommend a gear ratio. If you wanted to go to the 440-8th{2.86} and maintain the same "overall" gear ratio as your 19:46-10th{2.52}, then you would have to go to a 21:46 and that would be "mathematically" the same gear ratio as you presently have however 1 size smaller drive sprocket. 19gear x 1.11% = 21 gear
Result; 19:46-10th{2.52} = 21:46-8th{2.86}
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Parts - Removal of Ring gear?
Question)was wondering about the ring gear on primary, can it come off, BRP is saying it is part of the balance of crank.

Answer)The ring gear is added to reduce torsional vibration and prolong crankshaft bearing life. The added weight lowers the natural frequency that the crankshaft rings at. Added weight makes the engine easier to start, the crank will rotate for longer period of time than without it.
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Nitrous - Summit kit using nitrous?
Question)Hello Joe, I'm curious about the high elevation clutch kit for my 07 Summit. My question is I plan on installing nitrous for this season so will this kit work for me?

Answer)The kit for your sled c/w primary spring/pin kit /roller helix. Just follow the calibration as per the setup sheet and go. Regarding Nitrous, guys who run a 20 to 40hp shot usually see a 200~250 increase in rpms when running the kit. There are guys who have a 50hp shot in 07R and run up to 400 rpms over stock rpms and seems ok to me because of good feedback the marriage of the kit / nitrous works well.
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Engine Porting - Im porting the engine, do I have to change flyweight?
Question)Hi joey, i have your kit with stock engine and running it as your instructions reccomended. the sled was dialed pretty decent last yr. heres the deal i am getting my cylinders back with some trail porting & vf-3 reeds. The port grinder says add 1 gram of weight to the primary. Do you think i will have to change the flyweight around or do you think i can just turn down clicker a number? Thanks for any info Joe.

Answer)1st off when getting engine modifications, you have to know what rpm the engine will run at. Did the engine rpm increase or decrease from porting?
IF the rpms stays the same with the porting - THEN go run the sled with present clutching – check rpms. IF the rpms are high - THEN add a ½ gram or 1 gram of flyweight.

You must run the sled first to see what it will reveal upon the new engine calibration - Don’t go for changing clicker; clicker has greatest influence on response in the system [how quick the engine will accelerate “from one rpm to a higher rpm”]
*Change the overall rpms with flyweight and test under full throttle*.

You can keep adding flyweight and it will accelerate harder, add more and will accelerate harder yet, however there will be a point where the backshift will suffer in the environment you are running in. IF the backshift suffers, THEN reduce flyweight back to previous value.

Don’t put the cart before the horse – Run the sled with present clutching – Evaluate results – make calibration change after. Cya Joey
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MPH - Lack of top end mph on XP Trail sled.
Question) What kind of results have you seen in testing with your kit for the xp 800r? I've read that alot of these sleds are not pulling on top end? Does your kit improve or solve this issue or is it more of an improvement with backshift and shifting out completely?

Answer)I was 252 lbs when i built this kit and stock i could get 104mph repeatable, measuring with sportchek radar. After dialling in the clutch kit, it turned out to be about 107~108, using a bit of overdrive. I played with 27:45 right down to 22:45 and am back up to stock 27 becuase my sled runs well with it.
Part of the top end problem is the white letter 166 belt. Here is a few comments I have made about the belts causing poor top end.

Confirm that you have the correct belt width (measure) - The belt is supposed to be 1.44~1.5 inches wide. Some belts with 166 number and white writings are 1-3/8 wide, this will contribute to high system temperatures from fluctuating rpms and poor belt deflection and only .009” away from the wear limit (100 miles or less left to wear limit) A good replacement belt is 1.44~1.48 wide BRP#417300383 or BRP#417300377 (08 summit model)
Most other REV-XP, and REV-XR models, including the 1203 Four Strokes, will use a new belt, 417300383 which is the same length as the 166 but 1.5 mm wider. This belt would be a good choice for all previous years REVXP, because it is wider and would offer more adjustability. I highly recommend the 383 belt.
Put a wide belt (correct width belt) on the clutches and the sled will produce good top end.
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Clicker - Running odd clicker numbers
Question) What's this I hear about guys who run different clickers like say 2,2,3 or 3,3,5 or something like that. Can you do this without damaging the clutch?

Answer)From the primary clutch, there can be up to 1100lbs push force those 3 levers produce to clamp the belt. The 3 levers can push that hard or harder on the side of the belt. Now think of the forces each little roller has to distribute, between 300~400 lbs of push.
For long bushing live - Is imperative that the bushings are in good fitness and the ramps are proper, straight across each other "the same" clickers.
For special application - There are tuners who run an example clicker 2,2,3 [running one clicker odd number to get proper rpms] and that is ok for drag race and a tuner who is watching bushing wear.
Running odd clicker numbers are good for a check to "test" a system to see if it needs a flyweight or spring force change for increase or decrease. Other than that, run the same clicker numbers to promote long life of the roller and clutch sheave bushings.
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Belt - Deflection adjusted highest and belt still low
Question)One other issue I have is that the belt height adjustment in the secondary is maxed out even with a new belt and it is still slightly low. Is there a fix for this?

Answer)Yes there is a fix, rather an adjustment. Open up the secondary, there are 2 shims inside of it and can remove one shim then re-assemble and re-calibrate the belt deflection.
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Engines - Running 2000 700 in 04/440 - any help?
Question) I have done a 440/700 swap with a 2000 mxz 700 and it's clutches. I also have the 04/440 clutches. Do you make a kit for this with either clutch setup?

Answer)The 2004 440 c/w tra-3 primary clutch and t-secondary clutch.
The 2000 700 come with a tra-2 primary and formula button secondary.

Sorry to mention that I do not make a kit for either sled....but....
If you were to go out and find an RER secondary off of a 2002 (600/700/800/809) or a 2003~2007 (600/800) then I could set you up with a kit that will work excellent. The secondary name is HPV-27(brp name) however affectionately known by sledders as the RER secondary. Then you could use your 700 primary and the RER secondary and I could make a nice kit for you which would consist of a primary and secondary spring, helix and pin kit.
Those RER secondary can be found on the internet used for anywhere from $45 to $125 bux and work excellent.
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Springs - Difference in secondary spring forces.
Question) Hi Joe, I have a MX-Z adr/2006 800 p-tek button secondary w/1.25 track. I took my secondary apart last night and noticed that I’m running a stock green spring, at that time I opted to stay with the stock green 180/300. What would the performance difference be in my sled with any other spring?

Answer)The install force on the secondary spring will greatly influence “rpms acceleration” the time in seconds (10ths) for the engine to accelerate from one rpm to a higher rpms whatever rpm that may be.
So going from a 160 to a 180 to a 200 to a 225...etc. Each spring force will allow the engine to accelerate rpms quicker. So now if you pull off in deep snow and were to make a run with each spring you will notice as you cycle the throttle in say a 30mph track speed in 1.5’ of snow, each higher force the engine will “recover rpms” quicker.
Ideally at top end mph, the spring forces are nearly the same and should produce similar top speed as long as the rpms are the same.
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MPH - 07R summit lack of top end
Question) I have an 07R 800 144 that has trouble getting good top end speed, bottom end and mid range is ok but tough to get 75 mph out of it. What have you seen?

Answer) Some of the problem with the 07R lack of top end is the primary clutch sliding sheave, the button galley might be tapered so what happens as the shift increases, the levers push the sheave, pushing on the belt. As the sliding sheave button galley slides past the buttons, the fit gets tighter and tighter and will not allow good high mph. The galley is tapered and will not allow full shift. I tested an 07R sled and found the galley was tapered, I could not get more than 70mph out of it. A stock clutch 600 144 would be about 10 mph faster top end on the road to get to the snow. I put the 07R primary clutch in an oven and heated to 160 degrees; It was difficult to move the sliding sheave towards full shift with no spring installed.
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Clutching Twin Pipes - Twin pipes on Summit
Question) I’m not sure what clutch Kit to get From you. I do have a pair of twin pipes and plan on putting them on with podfilters. I have heard and read many bad things about putting twins on skidoo. With the pipes the rpm of the motor wide open should be 8100-8300.

Answer) Hi....The blame for Twin pipes not working on a snowmobile is sometimes the tuners fault. 90% I have encountered think the engine won’t run right, hard to jet, power band too narrow or whatever else you can blame the engine for.

Here is where the tuner makes the mistake; they think with 15hp increase that the helix angle has to be increased to make up for the added hp and this is wrong. The HP is normally increased by “increased rpms” and can reveal lower torque, so now you actually have to 1]increase secondary spring forces or 2] lower the helix angles or make a wider spread of helix angles to compensate for the lower torque the engine produces.

I give a real example of a tuner I coached. He ran a set of twin pipes that raised the “rated rpms” from 7850 to 8300. Originally using a 47/44, he thought that by the hp increase he would have to compensate by going to a 53/47 and had a tough time to get the sled to perform good at any operation other than a full throttle run to top end mph.
If the throttle was cycled or snow load changes or ground level changed, the rpms would reduce and not recover unless the sled speed was reduced. After explaining about the engine and now new requirements of clutching, he ended up going with a 47/40 and regained good backshift and proper rpms under loaded conditions.

Another way is to take the secondary spring start force and increase it to put more clamp on the belt in the secondary, the higher force increase “Stalls the upshift” and forces the engine to produce rpms, thus improving backshift when the load varies.
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General - Opinion on shock vave vs. quick clicker?
Scenario – You finished running up the road to the deep snow and need to re-calibrate the system to work best in the snow...Question – how long will it take you to adjust the helix angle? [go through the steps in your head and calculate the estimated time]
1] You stop the sled and shut the engine off. 2]Pop the side panel 3]You get your tool out and change, loosen off the knob and dial in a different helix angle. Reversing the steps, you lock the helix down again, Shut the side panel, Start the sled and haul the mail...about between 1~2 minutes fussing with it.

Quick clicker – 1] You stop the sled and shut the engine off. 2] Pop the side panel. 3]You get your thumb on the each of the 3 clicker knobs and push the clickers in and rotate the ramp angles. Reversing the steps, Shut the side panel, Start the sled and haul the mail...about between 1~2 minutes fussing with it.

Belt clamp
Helix angles change belt clamp forces. I would want an angle(s) to clamp the belt all the way to top ratio. If I change the angle, I change the belt clamp forces, lower belt clamp, higher belt clamp....whatever they may be.
Clicker numbers we know change belt clamp forces in the primary. Need the primary to push harder, lower the clicker. Need the push less hard, raise the clicker.
In the end I rather go by what Aaen says – Find the correct helix angle and tune the rpms at the primary clutch.

..note, there can be an overrev caused by the secondary with too large of helix angle and not enough spring force.

I rather make a helix that clamps the belt properly in the secondary. From the primary, have it push properly in one clicker with one snow load condition (road) and in another clicker with a different snow load (powder)

The shockwave is a neato design, however I personally rather change the shift forces from the primary.
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Rpms - Peak rpms get lower as day goes on (summit)
Question) (04 800 rev, 9000', dynamoe joe clutch kit) I have noticed (only in powder) as the day progresses that my peak RPM's get lower and lower and lower, I have dropped almost ALL pin weight (down to the last 1/8" weight in each pin) while I have it on clicker (5,6) this setup is great in the hardpack, but in powder while initally is great, but as the day goes on gets progressively lower and lower peak RPM???? what to do?

Answer)A clutch kit is what it is and the calibration of it does not change over the day unless the primary or secondary springs are sagged out.
An engine will change it's personality over the day due to "fatigue failure"...even over a 10 second run, an engine will lose it's hot compression values - Kelsey has mentioned this dozens of times on dootalk or snowest.

Clutch Fitness
Usually system high temperature is from fluctuating rpms or worn bushings or high rpms or low rpms.

It would be an investment to know what kind of shape your secondary is in.
Can you get the diameter of the big bushing checked?
The bushing is at the wear limit at 89.15 millimeters or 3.510 inches.

On the primary clutch, visually inspect the coating of the 2 bushings for wear. Using a bore gauge, measure the inner diameter of the bushings – Measure point must be 5mm (1.4”) from the bushing edge.
*Spring Cover bushing – Replace bushing or cover if the inner diameter is a 30.40mm(1.197 in)
*Sliding sheave bushing – Replace bushing if inner diameter is 40.30mm (1.587”)

Engine
Best thing to rule something out is to take a Cold vs. Hot compression test.
1] Start the sled and let it run for about 30 seconds and kill engine.
Take compression with 6 pulls at wide open throttle.
What are the values?

2] Start the sled and let it run until the coolant is at operating temperature and flowing. Go take it for a run if you can and out there when engine operating temperature, shut it off and check the compression with 6 pulls at wide open throttle.
What are the values?

It does not matter if your gage is accurate or not as long as you use the same gauge when cold vs. hot temps.
Indications of rings going bad:
cold compression - 5lb(35kpa) or greater difference from mag to pto.
Hot compression - 7lbs (48kpa)(or more less than when it was cold then you need rings.
Hot compression - 10lbs(68kpa) or more less than when it was cold then you need pistons.
Example:
Cold @ 145lbs (999kpa)
Hot @ 138 lbs (951kpa) or less than...
Value difference more than 10lbs (68kpa)

In the end the best investment is to do a leakdown test to see if there is short circuit across the crank seals causing lower running compression.
If the compression is failing when engine is hot, then the engine will be down on power until it's not heat soaked anymore.
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Belt - Gap between belt and primary sheaves?
Question) How much of a gap should there be between the Primary halves and the belt? this is sitting without the engine running with the belt pushed to one side, how much of a distance should there be between the edge of belt and the primary sheave?

Answer) With a new belt on at 1.48 inches, anywhere from .020 I have seen up to .080 inches. I believe .050 with a new belt is about average (my experiences)
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Clicker - It seems that running a higher clicker (5,6) is shunned, why?
Question) It seems that running a higher clicker (5,6) is shunned, why? I seem to need the higher clicker usually so I use it, Does the higher clicker take away from torque or speed in shifting or something? I have noticed that the sled seemed less peak mph when I am using a higher clicker?

Answer) IF one clicker over another is shunned, THEN it is usually due to a tuners preprogrammed prejudice.
Some tuners like 19g in clicker 5 with my kits, some tuners like 17g in clicker 3 with the same kit on the same sled.

Ramp angle determines how hard the lever will be allowed to push. Different positions of the ramp from clicker change will allow the lever to push with different forces. In the end look for 2 details; 1)How quick the engine recovers rpms. 2)Do you observe a straight shift rpm under wide open throttle?

Whatever clicker suits the requirements whether it be this clicker value or that clicker value, it is what it is. A tuner can get a calibration to work with a set of ramps in clicker 3 and I can come along and (without him knowing it) can change the ramps and now he goes to run the sled, he'll have to run it in clicker 5 because the ramps I installed push harder than his previous ramps. He would have to raise the clicker because the new ramps cause low rpms or poor backshift at higher shift ratios - then raise clicker - or then raise final force of primary spring - or then lower final helix angle - all to get a straight shift again.
So then my question is; Does the clicker number matter? I would say "No"

Don't let yourself be pre-programmed by other tuners. Tuning by logic is (IF, this, THEN, that). Having a fave clicker number is superstitious.
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Wear - Odd wear on primary clutch spring cover in 3 symmetrical places
Question) I have 3 evenly placed worn markings on the primary spring cover and the same 3 markings on the governor cup where the cup sits upon the spring cover, what is happening?

Using a bore gauge, measure the inner diameter of the bushings – Measure point must be 5mm (1.4”) from the bushing edge.
*Spring Cover bushing – Replace bushing or cover if the inner diameter is a 30.40mm(1.197 in)
*Sliding sheave bushing – Replace bushing if inner diameter is 40.30mm (1.587”)
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Maintenance - Cleaning clutches in dishwater?
Question)Should I wash the clutches in dishwater or a diswashing machine?

Answer) You have to wipe the sediment out of the sheave cavities, before and after cleaning. If available, use compressed air to blow the sediment out, then wipe the cavities. If available, use brake cleaner spray, then wipe the cavities.

IF you put the parts in a diswashing machine, THEN do not use dishwashing liquid detergent. There are detergents that when mixed with water, the alkali makes a caustic solution that dissolves the aluminum's surface - this is called "Etching".

Depending on how clean you have the surfaces free from oil/residuce, the washing procedure when done may leave a dull white finish on the clutch. The sheaves may have to be re-polished.
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Maintenance - Dalton pin set comment about cotter pins
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Maintenance - Worn primary clutch splines?
Question) I have worn governor cup splines. I installed new torque buttons in the governor cup but not new button springs. Could the springs under the torque buttons wear out? The splines are wore enough to rotate ever so slightly. What do you think?

Answer)With clutch disassembled take the governor cup and install it back on the fixed sheave. With a dial indicator place the button on the head of the clicker bolt. With one hand rotate the governor cup back and forth, the maximum freeplay is .020 inches. IF more than .020", THEN replace the governor cup.

Another detail to remember is that the spring cup cover only touches the governor cup from engagment rpms or lower. Once past engagment rpms then the sliding sheave moves away, the spring cover moves away from the governor cup towards the engine.
Check bushing fitness for sure.
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RPMS - What rpms on the tach and how should they run?
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Exhaust - Adding a pipe and/or y-pipe
Answer)So say with stock engine you run 8150 rpms. Add an exhaust system and now the vendor wants you to run 8300. The additional hp is by virtue of rpms and now not necessarily have to add more flyweight.

Remember the principle about finding rpms - IF need higher rpms, THEN reduce flyweight.

You may be at a balance point to where with the addition of an exhaust system and higher power rpm that you don’t have to change the flyweight at all. Whatever you go do for modifications, 1]know the new rpms the engine must run at. 2]Run the sled with your present calibration to find out if you need to make a change.

Better to run the sled first, observe rpms, what are they? Then make a flyweight change if needed.

You could make a change right now like adding a gram prior to running the new exhaust mods, but what if you have only 8000 rpms? Now what? Ok no problem; Remember the principle about finding rpms - IF need higher rpms, THEN reduce flyweight. Me personally I would rather run the clutch calibration as is with the new mods, then make a run, observe operating rpms, then make a change if needed.

Head - Might want to add a head, what do I do with your clutch kit?
Answer)If you are going to just go with a head, usually you can add a ½ gram. From what I have seen on the inertia dyno that a head does not necessarily make more peak hp, rather it makes more average hp across an rpm range. Say an 800ptec for example, the addition of a head will enhance the torque values, raising them between rpms of 6300 and 7600 rpms. That kind of torque increase will allow the engine to recover rpms quicker when you cycle the throttle. It will allow you to run, varying the throttle position and observing tight feel between the throttle and the ground. A head usually makes a real fun enhancement for guys who do technical driving in snow and are on and off the throttle a lot.
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Parts - Broken secondary buttons, what's this from?
Question) I took my secondary apart for a regular clean-up before the season and I found out that there was 2 out of 3 buttons broken..is it a common problem?

Answer) Sometimes buttons get chipped from entering a corner at high speed, then slamming on the brakes, the track skids, then quickly apply full throttle to exit the corner doing a power slide. Usually buttons get broken from this type of operation (hit brake quickly, then quick full throttle) - Whack! Buttons may get chipped or break right off.